Season 17 Round 31 / 60
Game Time 2022 Aug 12, 00:33 UTC(+00:00)
F4 Oddities
GrafBelisarius
2022-07-18 20:18
One of F4's oddities is that weird, asymmetric tactics do well. Another is that teams that are moderately mismatched frequently result in 8-0 blowouts. A third, I think related issue, is that Chax's box formation (no wings) works well. I think these are all related. Some people have said the match engine is broken, but I'd say it's incomplete.

To be sure, this is speculative, not based on any deep analysis, so feel free to correct me. I think the underlying problem is that the match engine makes no effort to play teams in a way that adapts to circumstances on the pitch. It plays its tactic, come what may.

If humans encountered a team without any wings, they would nearly immediately send the ball out to their wingers and start passing it up and down the field without opposition, crossing at will. Crosses would tend to be on target, because no defender would be making trouble. No matter how packed the defence, it wouldn't hold out forever and Chax's team would get crushed. Similar considerations apply to the weird asymmetries.

But if you're paying no attention to what's happening in game, because you simply have a tactic to implement, then none of that happens; there is no adjustment.

How can a piece of code pretend to be more human? The idea is simple, even if the execution is not. The engine can monitor events in the game and automatically adjust play when things are out of balance. It's not a whole of pitch assessment. The pitch needs to be divided into zones, e.g., 12 zones, 3x4. When an opposition over some time window totally dominates a zone's possession, then a player needs to be sent into the zone when possible to counter that, rather than rigidly adhering to a tactic. The player chosen for roaming into the zone could be the nearest one in the tactic, unless at the moment he's occupied, when it could be the physically nearest player.

Assuming nothing like that is done now, this would be a major revision to the match engine. I don't imagine working out the details would be easy, just that it would be worthwhile. It would have to be designed and tested carefully. After all, F4 works now, so it can be broken. One nice thing about simulations is that you can test them as much as you like. You can also tune/calibrate them with real-world data.
GrafBelisarius
2022-07-18 21:41
A minor addition: I was thinking above of responding to tactics that overload an area, but the inverse is important as well. That is, if a zone is underoccupied, then the response should be to try to occupy and use it.
Fathima
2022-07-19 04:54
Ok so team A plays no wingers, so the match engine adjusts team B to use width. But there is a problem. Why would the match engine not adjust team A's formation to cover wings when team B starts using width?

I agree there are some loopholes currently in the match engine. But adjusting tactics isn't the solution. Moreover what if the manager wants to play narrow (it works well currently when defending) having the engine automatically adjust your tactics will undermine your plans.

From my experience it is relatively easy to deal with naroow formations if you are the better team. Guessing what tactics the opponent is going to play is the harder part especially against bots. Most people who complained about irregular formations have not seen how some good managers in the game crush them easily 😜
GrafBelisarius
2022-07-19 06:06
This is an amusement for me, so I'm not going to bother to investigate properly. These are only my off-hand thoughts. I still respectfully disagree. I think if you look at the best sims, like Football Manager, they do have adaptive tactices. It's not free-for-all tactics, but they're also not straightjackets.

Indeed, it would be easy enough to add a slider for how tightly you want your team to conform to the selected tactics, or to allow particular individuals to roam (something FM supports).

Letting a narrow team widen to accommodate a wide team (A v B) is just sensible. Allowing them also to stay tight is again sensible.

As for people complaining being ignorant, that seems wrong. Ghislain, for example, started in Season 1.

Anyway, I'll be interested to hear what Tegimus has to say, if anything.
Mr. Ske ⚽
2022-07-19 08:09
Not a single team has ever player with 6x wingers in 11 man team in real life..!

Tactics like 4-2-4 or 3-2-4-1 does not exist from 1920...so i agree here with Ghislain and others claiming tactics system and formation must get regulated...plus how can a team benefit playing with WB, MR, WF and AMR ever??? Only here in F4.

And for new managers complaining some of us joined season 1 or 2 (earlier) is just ridicolous as when training grounds and youth academy reaches maximum lvl there will be no difference between old and newer teams...like i said million times..! So...like i said billion times...or more users join the game asap or there should be major change in F4.

Regards
Ghislain
2022-07-19 08:41
GrafBelisarius wrote :
This is an amusement for me, so I'm not going to bother to investigate properly. These are only my off-hand thoughts. I still respectfully disagree. I think if you look at the best sims, like Football Manager, they do have adaptive tactices. It's not free-for-all tactics, but they're also not straightjackets.

Indeed, it would be easy enough to add a slider for how tightly you want your team to conform to the selected tactics, or to allow particular individuals to roam (something FM supports).

Letting a narrow team widen to accommodate a wide team (A v B) is just sensible. Allowing them also to stay tight is again sensible.

As for people complaining being ignorant, that seems wrong. Ghislain, for example, started in Season 1.

Anyway, I'll be interested to hear what Tegimus has to say, if anything.


It's true that I started Graf in season 1, but over the course of the seasons a lot of adjustments have been made.
As I have learned in the past, it is better to be able to do the new well than to always have to go back to the old.
It is very frustrating when you have built up a good team and suddenly there is an adjustment with ages such as last update.
Now my team has an average age of a youth team and the same with the exp.
The influence of Exp is just too great. Let's hope that the exp influence and the total 1 flank setups will disappear in the coming updates.
It gives me a feeling of not being taken seriously and therefore a considerable loss of interest in the game.
Ghislain
2022-07-19 08:42
I think after Tegimus i have the oldest team right now :)
Fathima
2022-07-19 11:45
@Ghislain you are right saying the meta shifted towards younger players after the latest update, but I am sure you will recover very fast you have actually almost recovered from that.

@Graf i dont mind if preset tactics are used in the game, but i prefer being able to customize. My point was that, I am yet to see an "advantage" for playing irregular tactics. Most examples I have seen were either bad tactics from opponent too, or the opponent was not strong enough (rating/xp) to take advantage of an irregular tactic. Also if you look at such games you indeed see more gameplay/possession etc for the opponent where they are less in number
Floyd007
2022-07-19 13:45
Fathima wrote :
@Ghislain you are right saying the meta shifted towards younger players after the latest update, but I am sure you will recover very fast you have actually almost recovered from that.

@Graf i dont mind if preset tactics are used in the game, but i prefer being able to customize. My point was that, I am yet to see an "advantage" for playing irregular tactics. Most examples I have seen were either bad tactics from opponent too, or the opponent was not strong enough (rating/xp) to take advantage of an irregular tactic. Also if you look at such games you indeed see more gameplay/possession etc for the opponent where they are less in number

https://www.f4football.com/matches/report/5314
https://www.f4football.com/matches/report/5216
https://www.f4football.com/matches/report/5300
3 examples of teams that has near complete control over me despite a formation that should be very bad. and last i was told, xp barely means anything anywhere
Chika Fujiwara
2022-07-19 13:49
Ghislain wrote :
I think after Tegimus i have the oldest team right now :)

After Tegimus, indo and Zidane...
Ghislain
2022-07-19 15:29
Tnx Chika,

That are not a lot of teams for me 😂
Mr. Ske ⚽
2022-07-19 15:43
Mahija joined 2021-03-01 19:22 in 1st pre-season so you are not the oldest :)

A.C. Bharat Milan Wings our rivals :)
Justin Holden
2022-07-19 15:50 Edited by Justin Holden at 2022-07-19 15:53
Clearly I am not the biggest fan of F4F as the game stands currently. I am having more enjoyment on other footie management sims that actually use real leagues and clubs. On here you have managers trying to create Greek clubs and stick them in the Spanish league...stuff like that...kind of offputting..

Now that my rant is out of the way, I'll put my two cents in on the topic at hand. I think having full control over custom formations is part of the charm of F4F and what makes it unique from other games in a good way. So, I don't think custom formations should be scrapped on F4F. However, I wouldn't mind the match engine being updated in a way where managers get punished for using "dumb" formations. Because realistically if you field a team with one defender at the back or all of your players lined up on the outside of the pitch, you are very likely to get taken advantage of by the opposition just on those tactical choices alone.
Mr. Ske ⚽
2022-07-19 15:58
Your 2cents bellow are on point, but why you waste time having more enjoyment on other sims rather F4 then??..wink wink

p.s. Dugout-Online is d'sh*t
Justin Holden
2022-07-19 16:33
Mr. Ske ⚽ wrote :
Your 2cents bellow are on point, but why you waste time having more enjoyment on other sims rather F4 then??


I guess holding out hope that F4F makes improvements that make me want to stick around. But there is another that I am spending more time on currently.
Floyd007
2022-07-19 19:32
https://www.f4football.com/matches/report/5350 another example. His AMR should of completely owned me, but instead he did almost nothing all game?
Kasper A.
2022-07-20 07:21
Floyd007 wrote :
https://www.f4football.com/matches/report/5350 another example. His AMR should of completely owned me, but instead he did almost nothing all game?

The player had just as many shots as all your players combined? Thats not normal for an AMR
GrafBelisarius
2022-07-31 04:08
After thinking about this some more, I've decided to leave this game.

The engine is radically unrealistic, and I've heard no commitment by Tegimus to improve it along the lines I've suggested, making matches more realistic. Contrary to Fathima, that's both doable (every other sim I've tried does a better job with it; there are plenty of known techniques that would help) and worth doing. The FM series does a great job, to be sure after hiccups in the early days, analogous to F4 hiccups. Of course, they have a lot of money and a large team. But all I would expect is a long-term trajectory towards a reasonable engine. Here I've got silence.

So, farewell!
Chika Fujiwara
2022-07-31 04:21 Edited by Chika Fujiwara at 2022-07-31 04:22
GrafBelisarius wrote :
After thinking about this some more, I've decided to leave this game.

The engine is radically unrealistic, and I've heard no commitment by Tegimus to improve it along the lines I've suggested, making matches more realistic. Contrary to Fathima, that's both doable (every other sim I've tried does a better job with it; there are plenty of known techniques that would help) and worth doing. The FM series does a great job, to be sure after hiccups in the early days, analogous to F4 hiccups. Of course, they have a lot of money and a large team. But all I would expect is a long-term trajectory towards a reasonable engine. Here I've got silence.

So, farewell!



so.... Who will Host Loan Club??, pass the System to someone pls
Don-x
2022-07-31 06:07
You are 3months old in the game, i feel your pain, i once lost to a 13 rated bot team on a final the ME have been updated since then.
I would suggest you stick around and hope for the next engine update.
Theres no perfect online simulation game thats totally free to play anyway.